Comments on: Is NYU Plagued by A Secretive, Sexist Administration or Students With Nothing Better To Do than Complain? http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/ The Blog of New York University Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:16:21 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Women Studies Final Project Bibliography « Macophile’s Blog http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-13989 Women Studies Final Project Bibliography « Macophile’s Blog Fri, 22 May 2009 04:14:28 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-13989 [...] 74) “Untitled” by Dean Stattman http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-stud... [...] [...] 74) “Untitled” by Dean Stattman http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-stud... [...]

]]> By: Take Back NYU! » Blog Archive » Regarding Our Tactics http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-4008 Take Back NYU! » Blog Archive » Regarding Our Tactics Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:32:47 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-4008 [...] think a whole lot of folks have read some of the recent press about us. In light of our interest in full disclosure, I’d like to address some concerns [...] [...] think a whole lot of folks have read some of the recent press about us. In light of our interest in full disclosure, I’d like to address some concerns [...]

]]> By: Henry Chan http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3766 Henry Chan Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:24:38 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3766 @Frank: The problem that I have with TBNYU! is not the cause that they're fighting for, but rather, the way in which they fight for it. I was a the Town Hall meeting last Monday, and quite frankly, I was disgusted by the attitudes of members of TBNYU! who were present at the meeting. There was a complete lack of respect from TBNYU!. I was somewhat indifferent to your organization until I went to that meeting, but you guys made a terrible first impression. I can not support an organization that acts like this. I refuse to. And I don't know if you guys saw this, but Sexton looked offended when you accused him of perpetuating the gender pay gap. He claims he has worked hard to reduce the gap here at NYU, and looking at the FAS report and their conclusions, I believe him to be correct. Comparing the two FAS reports you can tell that there's an improvement. Sure, there are issues that still need to be worked on, but I don't doubt that NYU is working to fix them. @Caitlin: Taking NYU back for me? For us students? Well, before you claim that your fighting for the students, I suggest you have the students on your side first. @Frank: The problem that I have with TBNYU! is not the cause that they’re fighting for, but rather, the way in which they fight for it. I was a the Town Hall meeting last Monday, and quite frankly, I was disgusted by the attitudes of members of TBNYU! who were present at the meeting. There was a complete lack of respect from TBNYU!. I was somewhat indifferent to your organization until I went to that meeting, but you guys made a terrible first impression. I can not support an organization that acts like this. I refuse to.

And I don’t know if you guys saw this, but Sexton looked offended when you accused him of perpetuating the gender pay gap. He claims he has worked hard to reduce the gap here at NYU, and looking at the FAS report and their conclusions, I believe him to be correct. Comparing the two FAS reports you can tell that there’s an improvement. Sure, there are issues that still need to be worked on, but I don’t doubt that NYU is working to fix them.

@Caitlin: Taking NYU back for me? For us students? Well, before you claim that your fighting for the students, I suggest you have the students on your side first.

]]> By: Chris Kennedy http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3764 Chris Kennedy Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:55:16 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3764 The *possibility* of "gender disenfranchisement" is not enough reason for NYU to disclose personal information like TBNYU is demanding, even if NYU wanted to, it would be wrong. As Charlie said, "anonymized data" is certainly a better approach but the premise of that is still wrong. Focusing on statistics so much is never a good thing. If NYU were to release that type of data it would just result in groups like TBNYU complaining because some statistic showed that men were 1.5x more likely to be hired or get tenure or whatever it may be. I don't want my university to be feel obliged to make sure there is a 50-50 split across the board on all issues and all professors. I want them to hire who they determine to be the best teachers, and give tenure to those who have shown the greatest achievement. Placing importance upon statistics like these could only ever cause worse professors to be hired or better ones to lose out, whether they be a man or a women. I don't pay $50,000/year to come to a school with a 50-50 split of men/women. I pay that much to receive a good education from the best professors NYU can get their hands on. The *possibility* of “gender disenfranchisement” is not enough reason for NYU to disclose personal information like TBNYU is demanding, even if NYU wanted to, it would be wrong.

As Charlie said, “anonymized data” is certainly a better approach but the premise of that is still wrong. Focusing on statistics so much is never a good thing. If NYU were to release that type of data it would just result in groups like TBNYU complaining because some statistic showed that men were 1.5x more likely to be hired or get tenure or whatever it may be.

I don’t want my university to be feel obliged to make sure there is a 50-50 split across the board on all issues and all professors. I want them to hire who they determine to be the best teachers, and give tenure to those who have shown the greatest achievement.

Placing importance upon statistics like these could only ever cause worse professors to be hired or better ones to lose out, whether they be a man or a women. I don’t pay $50,000/year to come to a school with a 50-50 split of men/women. I pay that much to receive a good education from the best professors NYU can get their hands on.

]]> By: Charlie Eisenhood http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3760 Charlie Eisenhood Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:15:34 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3760 The other thing you all can do, request anonymized data. That way, you can go run your own statistical analysis, but the privacy problems might be alleviated somewhat. Just a thought. The other thing you all can do, request anonymized data. That way, you can go run your own statistical analysis, but the privacy problems might be alleviated somewhat. Just a thought.

]]> By: Charlie Eisenhood http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3759 Charlie Eisenhood Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:12:27 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3759 I want to be clear: I am not against the overall motives of TBNYU. I think that if budget transparency is something that is important to you, definitely go fight for it. I am just arguing that you shouldn't try to spin the data to fit your agenda! Acknowledge the good things that NYU is doing. First, applaud them for showing NO signs of pay inequality once age, tenure, and experience are controlled for! Then you can raise areas of concern and explain why you think more disclosure would be good. Maybe try shooting for smaller victories - getting the university to divulge its entire operating budget is pretty unlikely. As Chris said, this is a private, non-profit institution. @ Caitlin: Your argument is exactly the kind I'm warning against. From the FAS report, there are NO signs that NYU is sexist. There are some areas that NYU needs to deal with, but the available data shows that they are. And saying "don't pat them on the back for being quite as awful as they were in 1919" is a surefire way to keep the university from taking you seriously. I made a legitimate point about a significant decrease in correlation from 2000 to 2005. I want to be clear: I am not against the overall motives of TBNYU. I think that if budget transparency is something that is important to you, definitely go fight for it. I am just arguing that you shouldn’t try to spin the data to fit your agenda! Acknowledge the good things that NYU is doing. First, applaud them for showing NO signs of pay inequality once age, tenure, and experience are controlled for! Then you can raise areas of concern and explain why you think more disclosure would be good. Maybe try shooting for smaller victories – getting the university to divulge its entire operating budget is pretty unlikely. As Chris said, this is a private, non-profit institution.

@ Caitlin: Your argument is exactly the kind I’m warning against. From the FAS report, there are NO signs that NYU is sexist. There are some areas that NYU needs to deal with, but the available data shows that they are. And saying “don’t pat them on the back for being quite as awful as they were in 1919″ is a surefire way to keep the university from taking you seriously. I made a legitimate point about a significant decrease in correlation from 2000 to 2005.

]]> By: Frank Marangiello http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3758 Frank Marangiello Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:54:38 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3758 Believe me Chris, you are never a criminal or a racist for preferring to keep your salary to yourself. However, the argument is that even if there is no evidence that there is gender disenfranchisement in terms of pay, there is really no way students or faculty could ever know it as a visible fact. It's not really curiosity that drives the students to ask the administration to disclose the budget, its concern. Also, there were other, less private issues that were addressed last Monday evening. I heard a young woman mention that she was concerned about NYU investing in companies that are profiting off of the American was machine. There were concerns over whether or not NYU supported vivisection on campus, and I think John Sexton provided that student with the right information by directing them to the man in charge of that (named Pierre, I think). Finally, democracy is not pretty. Since the town hall is the closest thing this campus has to a "democratic process," it really can't be expected that there won't be emotion and agitation at these meetings. While there can always be a little more respect here and there, I don't think there is anything wrong with standing up to NYU. P.S. Telling people to go to public universities, sounds a little yuppy. Maybe re-phrase that statement next time so you don't offend anyone. Thanks and take care. -Frank Believe me Chris, you are never a criminal or a racist for preferring to keep your salary to yourself. However, the argument is that even if there is no evidence that there is gender disenfranchisement in terms of pay, there is really no way students or faculty could ever know it as a visible fact. It’s not really curiosity that drives the students to ask the administration to disclose the budget, its concern. Also, there were other, less private issues that were addressed last Monday evening. I heard a young woman mention that she was concerned about NYU investing in companies that are profiting off of the American was machine. There were concerns over whether or not NYU supported vivisection on campus, and I think John Sexton provided that student with the right information by directing them to the man in charge of that (named Pierre, I think). Finally, democracy is not pretty. Since the town hall is the closest thing this campus has to a “democratic process,” it really can’t be expected that there won’t be emotion and agitation at these meetings. While there can always be a little more respect here and there, I don’t think there is anything wrong with standing up to NYU.
P.S. Telling people to go to public universities, sounds a little yuppy. Maybe re-phrase that statement next time so you don’t offend anyone. Thanks and take care.
-Frank

]]> By: Chris Kennedy http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3751 Chris Kennedy Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:37:25 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3751 @ Frank and Caitilin No, secrecy and privacy are very different and NYU is not being secretive. NYU is a *private* university composed of *private* individuals they choose to hire. Releasing the information you are all demanding would be a breach of the privacy of their faculty. If you want to know your professor's salary, go transfer to a public university. I am not a criminal or a racist and have nothing "to hide" but if you ever asked me to disclose my financial status to you would get the same answer as NYU gave you: NO! There are a lot of factors that go into deciding who gets tenure, or who gets hired, not just their gender. The number of people hired is not so large that we should expect a 50-50 split between men and women. Maybe, just maybe, the men who got tenure were more qualified than the women who were candidates. Somehow I don't think you all would be so critical of NYU if women had an advantage in being hired and obtaining tenure. Affirmative action doesn't fix problems, it just creates more. @ Frank and Caitilin

No, secrecy and privacy are very different and NYU is not being secretive. NYU is a *private* university composed of *private* individuals they choose to hire. Releasing the information you are all demanding would be a breach of the privacy of their faculty. If you want to know your professor’s salary, go transfer to a public university.

I am not a criminal or a racist and have nothing “to hide” but if you ever asked me to disclose my financial status to you would get the same answer as NYU gave you: NO!

There are a lot of factors that go into deciding who gets tenure, or who gets hired, not just their gender. The number of people hired is not so large that we should expect a 50-50 split between men and women. Maybe, just maybe, the men who got tenure were more qualified than the women who were candidates.

Somehow I don’t think you all would be so critical of NYU if women had an advantage in being hired and obtaining tenure. Affirmative action doesn’t fix problems, it just creates more.

]]> By: Caitlin Boehne http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3739 Caitlin Boehne Sat, 15 Nov 2008 04:52:07 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3739 Justin: It sounds like you need a hug. Henry: We're taking NYU back from the administration and Board of Trustees and, more importantly, GIVING NYU back to those who compose it-- the people who learn and teach here. Charlie: What is an acceptable level of injustice? When a report is issued saying that there are sexist, racist, or inhumane practices being committed under the name of NYU, regardless if it's against one being or one thousand, it should not be tolerated. Let's not pat NYU on the back for not being quite as awful as they were in 1919. Chris: Secrecy (or, as you say, privacy) is only good for one thing-- protecting corruption. Justin: It sounds like you need a hug.

Henry: We’re taking NYU back from the administration and Board of Trustees and, more importantly, GIVING NYU back to those who compose it– the people who learn and teach here.

Charlie: What is an acceptable level of injustice? When a report is issued saying that there are sexist, racist, or inhumane practices being committed under the name of NYU, regardless if it’s against one being or one thousand, it should not be tolerated. Let’s not pat NYU on the back for not being quite as awful as they were in 1919.

Chris: Secrecy (or, as you say, privacy) is only good for one thing– protecting corruption.

]]> By: Frank Marangiello http://nyulocal.com/on-campus/2008/11/14/is-nyu-plagued-by-a-secretive-sexist-administration-or-students-with-nothing-better-to-do-than-complain/comment-page-1/#comment-3735 Frank Marangiello Sat, 15 Nov 2008 03:24:02 +0000 http://nyulocal.com/?p=4760#comment-3735 I think that this is a legitimate concern, and the fact that so many who do not agree with the motives of this coalition have taken the time to read the FAS report, it is now, FINALLY, something that more people are open to discussion. Whether or not you believe NYU is guilty of gender discrimination, the fact still remains: gender discrimination is alive everywhere. This is a problem, and one that takes a lot of human effort. I think "complain" and "whine" were poor choices to say the least. I am actually really surprised that a newspaper run by students has been so critical of people who are practicing their freedom of speech and opinion. There has not been one solid argument against this coalition other than the notion that Take Back NYU! is a group of kids that "have nothing better to do." Well, this is just one person's opinion, but there are a lot of ways to go about getting an education. Is this not one of them? I think that this is a legitimate concern, and the fact that so many who do not agree with the motives of this coalition have taken the time to read the FAS report, it is now, FINALLY, something that more people are open to discussion. Whether or not you believe NYU is guilty of gender discrimination, the fact still remains: gender discrimination is alive everywhere. This is a problem, and one that takes a lot of human effort. I think “complain” and “whine” were poor choices to say the least. I am actually really surprised that a newspaper run by students has been so critical of people who are practicing their freedom of speech and opinion. There has not been one solid argument against this coalition other than the notion that Take Back NYU! is a group of kids that “have nothing better to do.” Well, this is just one person’s opinion, but there are a lot of ways to go about getting an education. Is this not one of them?

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