> I don’t have the same rights as everyone else. Where is this national unity I keep hearing about?

Sorry that you feel that way. And I hope you do understand when a child is born after a traditional marriage, there is a man and woman and not every other combination. So what you are saying, is that why God didn’t give you the right to give birth over a gay union.

We do love you as a person, and saying yes on prop 8 has nothing to do with that.

No chastising from this direction; none at all-toward you anyway.
I do have a bit of scolding for the voters of those states: SHAME ON YOU!
Shame on you. How on earth can it happen, in the 21st century, that AMERICANS vote to TAKE AWAY another person’s rights? How is this allowed to happen, and where do I make my donation to fund the lawsuit that makes it to the US Supreme Court?

As a heterosexual, you are right in the fact that I will truly never understand how this defeat feels. But as a Californian, let me tell you that I’m crushed. Prop 8 took any happiness away that I would have had for Obama. Bigotry, it seems, is still alive and well.

I was, one of those people, surrounded by revelers staying up until 3 in the morning hoping that by some miracle the numbers would change and I agree. I can’t deal with people celebrating this election when one of the largest blows to the civil rights movement was dealt at the same time.

I just want to say that I woke up this morning with the same hope, that today was a new day, a day for change. I was thinking how cool is that for Barack Obama to say today I am president.

But when I found out that Prop 8 was passed that didnt matter anymore. I cant believe that over 50% of the votes went to a black man to run our country, and to know that majority of the voters for Barack Obama got there independent right taken away from them the same night that history was made breaks my heart.

It sadens me to know that my brother and many other gay citizens have to feel disappointed today, and fight harder for a constitutional right that has been set in place for them since birth.

There are more homosexual individuals out in the society today doing more for our community than there are straight individuals, drug addicts, child molesters, rapists, criminals and they are bieng punished for feeling with there heart.

I understand your sadness, I really really do. For me, being a Californian, and voting via absentee ballot, I was so so disappointed by the results. For weeks before receiving my absentee ballot, I had seen my CA friends on facebook post on their status to vote no on Prop. 8, but I did not really bother to read up on it until i got the ballot. And I was absolutely floored that it even got on it, fucking couldn’t believe it. Call me idealistic and ignorant, but I honestly had more faith in Californians to believe that all Americans should have right to get married.

California broke my heart last night/this morning.

I too am disheartened by the w hole thing. Its sad, very sad. I do, however, live in Massachusetts so my partner and I can and probably will get married. It should, however, be available to all gay men and women around the country. keep your head up, things will change =)

I can’t believe that people feel they have the right to restrict what others do. I’m surrounded by people, as i type this, arguing about how it affects they’re kids in school. I wish that one day my children or my children’s children will be taught in school that everyone has equal rights and that no one can take away rights of another person.

I live in California and voted no on prop 8. If you saw the religious nut jobs in this state…. And what hurts the most? Blacks supported Prop 8 70/30 while Whites and Asians were against prop 8.

Blacks…..of all races…..

I’m with ya, Josh. Obama’s victory is bittersweet.

I have thought about this issue long and hard, I hope what I say is taken in the same way it is given, I don’t want to offend anyone, but I would like to explain my position, and I will try to do so in an unbiased way as possible. I have a lesbian friend who I respect and admire very much. She has been the most influential person I have ever worked with. But despite my friendship with her I can’t allow the definition of marriage to be changed. Marriage has already been discounted and degraded through the common practice of couples living together before getting married, and the easy exit strategy of a divorce. To me marriage means so much more, it is something sacred and it was mandated by God to be between a man and a woman. I can already hear the replies that you think I am a bigot, but I have thought long and hard about this and this is my fundamental belief. There is the concession that gay couples can be joined in a civil union and get all the insurance/tax benefits of marriage. So let it be at that. But please don’t try to change my fundamental belief that will further degrade the sacredness of marriage and family.

This article brought me to tears as it has very close to home…….in fact these are the first tears I’ve shed over the issue thus far.

I was up till 3:30 a.m. constantly hitting “refresh” on my Google page…..hoping and praying that the numbers would change.

I live in the San Bernardino County……highly conservative and hell bent on passing the issue……Ive stared at “Yes on 8″ signs for weeks having confidence our great state could not possibly pass the proposition.

I served on the picket lines, hoping to change even one persons mind……I dont know if I did, but cant help but to feel failure.

I stood in the cold with nearly a hundred others opposing prop 8….. we submitted ourselves to the scrutiny and insults of passing cars, and endured the physical attacks of the proponents of prop 8.

To the voters that voted yes…….some of you do not believe this has anything to do with hate and prejudice. I do believe most of you, as ignorant as it may be I commend you for your stance and voting…..HOWEVER, i fear that your views have led you to vote along side truly HATEFUL people. People that are willing to claw scratch and kill anyone different from them.

Who are we really if not defined by the actions we take, and the people we surround ourselves by?

To the Opposition……Thank you for your courage…..thank you for your support…..but our fight continues. I can only hope that you all will continue to put forth all the effort we have seen in these late weeks of this campaign.

I must still hold out hope just as women did when Wilson ignored their plea to vote. I will stand firm.

I think Hilary Clinton said it best in her concession speech this year:

“There are no Acceptable limits, and NO acceptable prejudices in the 21st century in our country…”

“…Always aim high, work hard, and care deeply about what you believe in. And when you stumble keep faith, and when you’re knocked down GET RIGHT BACK UP, AND NEVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT YOU CAN’T OR SHOULDN’T GO ON!”

KEEP FAITH CALIFORNIA>>>>>KEEP FAITH AMERICA>>>>>>>ONE DAY WE WILL ALL BE TRULY EQUAL BEFORE OUR FELLOW MEN AND WOMEN.

Despite what I think or what you think though. The democratic process has spoken, so while I didn’t vote for Obama, the people have spoken and I look forward to see what the next four years has in store for us all. The same with Prop 8 the people have spoken, and we should accept that.

Thank you for what you said, Josh. I’m in San Francisco and stood on the street corner last night and watched crowds of people cheering in the middle of an intersection. In my heart, I felt the same elation, the same hope that things are on the up for our country. But I am also like the boy you described. I’m writing this at my computer at work, trying to keep the tears from flowing. My heart is so heavy, so let down. All I can think is how much it hurts.

I used to be a Christian, and understand that many people believe their intentions to be pure. And although I believe many of yes on prop 8 voters feel bound by what they are taught the Bible says, I would just encourage them to think about how hurtful the passage of this prop is to so many people. I just can’t accept that a LOVING God would create gay people only to make them suffer. Use your beautiful empathetic skills that I know you’ve been taught, and put yourself in this place.

This proposition was about more than just marriage. This is about being taken seriously as a person. This is about millions of people who are tired of feeling invalidated. And for merely being themselves, for following their hearts, and for seeking love.

So how does one bring about change? I don’t want to push my beliefs on anyone else. I just want space to be myself.

Damn faggots ….. they need to straighten up!!!

As a Californian that voted No on 8, I too am very saddened by the result of the elections. It leaves you feeling numb; on one hand I am happy for Obama’s win but on the other hand, I overwhelmed by a sense of loss. I did cry at work (professor) but was cheered by my wonderful students, several who commiserated with me after class. I’ve been contacted by several gay right activists who are asking everyone to hold out hope that the absentee ballots will switch the balance of the vote. I’m not that optimistic. There is no such thing as separate but equal. I am so sorry for your sadness, I join you in it. Our whole household is in mourning today.

you can donate to HRC – and to those that fight for the rights of ALL PEOPLE. Please donate!

And ya, SHAME ON CALIFORNIA and the Mormon Church. I was a good long standing member of the LDS faith for 27 years. NO MORE. I cannot support a church that says one thing and does another and there are MANY MORE that feel that way.

Gays do have rights. However not everyone has to agree that marriage is a right that should be granted to the gays. Marriage is sacred and is not for those who chose that kind of lifestyle. Gays have only forgotten thier shame during this last century. What you decide to do in bed is up to you. But it’s like saying that everyone should accept that anal sex is natural and healthy and moral. I am sorry you have been brainwashed, but you and most everyone else here is so very wrong.

I voted yes on 8 because as I would wish of my children, so shall I vote. Voting is about expressing what you believe. Voting for or against something and standing up for what you believe is a right. Homosexuality is a lifestyle that does not have to be accepted. And just because people don’t accept or approve of what you do, it doesn’t make it discrimination, because to have an opinion is our right. It is a stronger right to be able to vote than to be able to marry. That is somethings that the gays will not be able to control.

Thank you Ryan for your supporting comments

Thankfully, my county voted no, but it’s sad indeed to see us take such a step backwards.

It’s interesting that the counties that voted no are almost all on the coastline – what is it about proximity to the ocean that makes people…better?

YAY on Prop 8

what we banned marriage between midgets? the physically deformed? or everyone who is left handed?

banning gay marriage doesnt make sense. sure you wanna “protect your children, and be the one the one to teach them about homosexuals” so do it. send them to private school.

but when youre vote determines the happiness of another person, a person whom you have never met, whos lives influence yours nonewhatsoever, youve crossed a line.

society has already desensetized the nation of gay people. especially in california!

living in orange county, im appauled at all the stupid fucking yellow Yes on 8 signs ive been forced to live around. its so closed minded of everyone to think that everything revolves around them. other people have rights too.

and definition of marriage? well thats YOUR deffinition. that will affect you. again, what youre beliefs are, shouldnt effect another person.

i’m not gay.
i don’t have any gay friends.
no one gay has ever influenced my life in anyway.

america is a place free from religious pressure, right?
thats why our ancesters came to america? RIGHT!
because they didnt want others thoughts and beliefs forced upon them.

so why would prop 8 be anything close to patriotic?

my grammer and spelling is terrible during this entire spiel
but im JUST SO FUCKING HEATED

i had better hope for california.
hopefully somehting will come and reverse this in the next election.

I hate hearing that people don’t want to ruin marriage by allowing same sex couples to marry. What crap. What about the high divorce rate??? Isn’t that “ruining marriage”? And another thing, why does the meaning/definition of marriage have to come from the Bible? I’m a Christian, but I completely respect other people’s faiths and I feel like if there is an atheist, or Buddhist, or whatever gay/lesbian person out there, why should they have to follow the Bibles meaning of marriage. And regardless of all that I’ve said…ITS FLAT OUT DISCRIMINATION. I’m an historian and the only thing giving me hope right now is looking back at the trends of other groups of people that have been discriminated against and I only hope that for gays and lesbians around the world, their day is coming SOON when they are allowed the same rights as everyone else.

Wow. Thanks again, Internet comments, for further diminishing my faith in humanity.

Hey, I’ve got a fun idea for a game: I’ll give a special prize to anyone that can come up with an argument against marriage equality that makes any fucking sense at all.

I just can’t help it. I am so…overjoyed that Prop 8 passed. the gays/lesbians, etc are trying to foist their ideoligies down hetersexuals/ traditional throats…some of you talk about the “religious nut jobs” in California. well, some of the voters in California who refused to accept tracts from opponents of Prop. 8 were yelled at and harrassed while trying to place their vote. it seems to me that the opponents were bent on terrorizing and scaring would be voters from voicing their opinions. some of you claim to be Christian. why not read your Bible. God was pretty explicit on how he felt about homosexuality.

God was pretty explicit on how he felt about homosexuality.

Oops! I’m sorry, Lisa, the judges are telling me that’s incorrect, that God doesn’t exist, and that we’re all insects on a rock hurtling through a cold, indifferent universe.

Next contestant?

What’s funny–or really, just sad–is that much opposition to marriage equality and same-sex “civil union” rights probably comes from the business sector. Corporations don’t want to have to shell out the money required to cover spousal insurance, etc., that heterosexual employees receive for their partners but that would obviously greatly increase in number should gays receive equal treatment under the law. As long as your employee’s boyfriend remains a boyfriend and doesn’t become a husband, you don’t have to pay for his benefits, etc.

I wonder how much of Obama’s anti-gay-marriage platform comes from his personal beliefs and how much came from the prodding of corporate interests who funded his campaign, just as corporations help fund any large-scale campaign, Democrat or Republican.

Also, um, wow. Thanks for the comments in support. I really want to do more with the HRC. To everyone who protested Prop 8 and devoted so much of their time and energy to the cause of human equality–thank you. Thank you thank you thank you. You are all amazing and inspiring. You are changing history, whether we see that in legislation right now or not. Don’t give up, and remember, you’re never alone.

Nice post, Josh. I completely agree. While my friends and I wanted to be celebrating Obama’s victory, these results were just devastating. Instead of even focusing on his acceptance speech, we found ourselves refreshing the CNN page every two seconds as the CA results were coming in. The talk of last night being a historic victory for equality was laughable.

If you want to do something to help, do contact the HRC or even join their email list-serve. The emails keep you updated on the issues and let you know what you can do. Even writing letters to your government officials is better than nothing (and the HRC provides addresses and such).

Nicely done, citizens of California, Florida, Arizona, and Arkansas. You’ve successfully worked discrimination into your state laws! It’s good to teach children to be intolerant and hateful, isn’t it?

After all, I quote Tina Fey as Sarah Palin when I say, “Marriage is a sacred institution between two unwilling teenagers…”

I honestly don’t believe that Obama is truly against gay marriage. I don’t believe Joe Biden is either. Or many of the leading Democrats for that matter. I understand the point about Obama having to satisfy his corporate sponsors, but I think his pretending be anti-gay-marriage has more to do with the fact that he is trying to get elected in the most Christian nation in the world. Obama won 53% of the vote in a country where 51% of the people don’t believe in evolution. There is not a single argument that supports a ban on gay marriage that isn’t theological.

Ned, if you want to believe that humankind originated from sludge then it comes as no surprise that you would believe what a few people on a bench decided on…which,by the way, went against the will of the people in 2000- prop 22- remember? how soon some people like to forget the will of the people, or in simple terms, the Democratic process.
Next contestant……….

[...] Vía | NYU Local [...]

Okay….Let’s step back and look at this objectively. 1st, The US was founded to insure religious freedom and of course, liberty and justice for all. 2nd, we wrote the US constitution to guarantee our liberty and justice for all . 3rd, the constitution clearly separates the church and the state which insures that religion can’t influence government policy. 4th, most of the 50 states of this country, including CA, are strongly modeled after the US constitution…This being said, NOTHING in the US and CA constitutions states that marriage is defined as only being between a man and a woman.

This is Government 101.
I respect everyone’s right to have a religion and to have a faith. I think there’s room for all types of belief systems and ideologies……that’s what makes the US so wonderful…..BUT, the church has no business influencing, and in the case of Prop 8, purchasing over 23 million dollars worth of airtime to pollute the minds of CA voters with propaganda and lies. The church imposed their religious beliefs into the framework of CA’s government. This is a direct violation of the US constitution and must be repealed.

Again this is NOT a religious debate. Ask yourself whether it’s constitutional to exclude only one group of people from the legal right of marriage as defined by the US and CA constitutions…..the only answer is no. To change the constitution in order to REDEFINE what marriage means is also unconstitutional. No matter how you cut it, Prop 8 is fundamentally wrong according to the constitution of the United States and the state of California. It will eventually be repealed ; it’s inevitable.

If we’re looking to protect the sanctity of marriage, why not outlaw divorce? Why don’t we subject couples to extensive testing to prove that they’ll stay together, love, honor, cherish each other, and teach their progeny to discriminate?
Let’s write in a clause that prevents the exceptionally promiscuous from marrying, or anyone who might let themselves go and thus entice their spouses to jump ship.
While we’re at it, let’s ban all forms of birth control, reinstate the earth as the center of the universe, and bomb the Museum of Natural History. After all, the church has never been wrong before.

I agree; heterosexuals have done enough to weaken the institution of marriage–but here we have people who are willing to withstand hate, discrimination, and all sorts of religious bullshit just to say “I do.” It sounds a little more trying than a drunken night in Vegas, doesn’t it?

But, you’re right, they don’t deserve to smear the sacred bonds of marriage– that’s a sin reserved for the straight.

In response to Don, or rather as an addition to it: I invite anyone to come up with an argument for banning gay marriage that is NOT theological. If the right to marry truly is a state issue (and it is), then there should be at least one argument against gay marriage that is not faith-based, no?

religion is gay

Ned I wand to play

If you dont believe in God why do you care about getting married? Marriage is an institution that originated from a certain sect you dont believe in. Can you guess the origins? It is a Christian institution. So why care?

Marriage is an institution designed for a families and the last I checked homosexuals have a difficult time creating a family, with children and all.

When is the last time you saw a gay man give birth?

Hell I would rather give the right of marriage to polygamists then homosexuals!

Jordan

It is simple…. homosexuality is more abnormal than polygamy. At least Mother Nature says polygamists can have children. Can gay couples have children? Society says having more than one spouse is not allowed. And in my view polygamists should have more of a right to get married then homosexuals. So if they cant then why should homos??? At least polygamists commit a NATURAL act when having sex.

This is from Mother Natures perspective and not God…does that qualify?

Why if Polygamists are not allowed to marry should homosexuals be allowed?

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/petition-sign.cgi?seg5130

“It is simple…. homosexuality is more abnormal than polygamy. At least Mother Nature says polygamists can have children.”

Chris S, that is stupid, to be honest. While polygamy is a choice, homosexuality is not, and there has been extensive scientific research (and common sense) proving this (which is commonly ignored by people who ignore science ). If we want to bring God into it, or even Mother Nature, why then were some people made to be homosexual? It is not abnormal. Have you ever been to New York City? Many, many more homosexuals than polygamists, I can assure you…

Really science?

Please provide your scientific research and you wont cause there is none. And even if there were it is still a choice to have sex.

Chris, why is homosexuality so “abnormal? Abnormal just means different from most, doesn’t it? Should we not allow lefties to marry either? There are just about as many lefties in this world as gay people, so I guess that’s pretty abnormal too.

Also, marriage is not a Christian institution. People were getting married wayyyyy before Christianity even started. The religion really didn’t catch on until a few hundred years after Christ. People have been getting married for thousands of years, so that argument doesn’t really make sense either.

Sorry for three posts in a row everyone, I just thought of something else as I got up from the computer.

Chris: If sex is solely for the purpose of having children, shouldn’t that make contraception illegal too? If straight people can have sex for pleasure, why can’t gay people?

If you dont believe in God why do you care about getting married? Marriage is an institution that originated from a certain sect you dont believe in. Can you guess the origins? It is a Christian institution. So why care?

Because marriage now has certain legal rights attached to it, such as benefits if your spouse dies.

It is simple…. homosexuality is more abnormal than polygamy. At least Mother Nature says polygamists can have children. Can gay couples have children? Society says having more than one spouse is not allowed. And in my view polygamists should have more of a right to get married then homosexuals. So if they cant then why should homos??? At least polygamists commit a NATURAL act when having sex.

Oops, sorry, the judges tell me that makes no fucking sense and is insufficient justification for restricting the liberty of others.

“Marriage is an institution that originated from a certain sect you dont believe in. Can you guess the origins? It is a Christian institution.”

Chris, last I checked you can go to your local city hall, sign a paper and get married, no church involved.

When the government made the institution of marriage a legal document, marriage became a secular concept in the legal context. And in that legal context, how is it ok to discriminate against a sexual orientation?

if to you marriage is only meaningful between a man and a woman, then practice your belief. but don’t try to justify government endorsing and imposing religious beliefs.

i’m honestly shocked that prop 8 was passed. I never imagined that America would ever again adopt laws that deny rights to a group of its citizens. If a majority of the country believed in imposing the Christian faith on all American citizens, would that be passed into law as well? Would you be defending it?

“Really science?

Please provide your scientific research and you wont cause there is none. And even if there were it is still a choice to have sex.”

There is still a choice to have sex…Hmm…

Really. Chris. I assume you’re a guy. Can you choose what you get a boner to? I don’t think so.

Humor me for a moment. Let’s say . Chris, you are a heterosexual. You like girls. You like having sex with girls. BUT, having sex with girls is considered gross and immoral by the majority of society. So, my question is, Chris, would YOU have sex with a guy, even if you find it personally disgusting? Keep in mind, that having sex with a guy would be considered “normal”. So, in an attempt to be “accepted” by society, would you conform to their “norms” and do what theywe live in a parallel universe, where homosexuality is the norm and heterosexuality isn’t want you to do? Or would you still have sex with girls, because that’s what you’re wired for?

And yes, I understand that such a society does not exist. We live in the exact opposite. But like I said, humor me for a moment, and pretend. What would you do?

And if you say you’d have sex with a guy, you’re lying. Because I know that you think that gay sex is disgusting. I mean, after all, it’s not “natural”.

Oy. A part of my comment was cut off:

“Humor me for a moment. Let’s say that we live in a parallel universe, where the majority of the people are homosexual…”

Should read:

“Humor me for a moment. Let’s say we live in a parallel universe, where homosexuality is the norm and heterosexuality isn’t. Chris, you are a heterosexual. You like girls. You like having sex with girls. BUT, having sex with girls is considered gross and immoral by the majority of society. So, my question is, Chris, would YOU have sex with a guy, even if you find it personally disgusting? Keep in mind, that having sex with a guy would be considered “normal”. So, in an attempt to be “accepted” by society, would you conform to their “norms” and do what they want you to do? Or would you still have sex with girls, because that’s what you’re wired for?

The problem here is not what each individual person believes about marriage, sex, who should be with who, is homosexuality “wrong” (i’m not going there right now because it’s a different argument), etc. The problem is that government is trying to define “marriage,” an institution which affects each person’s personal life, an important decision which people choose to make–or not to make–in their lifetime. Sure, we can choose who, what, when, how to marry, but the fact that the government regulates and defines marriage, or even interferes in it, is the central problem IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE–not even getting into views on homosexuality. It’s almost like the government is setting regulations on how you can live your life or who you can be–OH HAY GUYZ, that would be communism.
The point here is that by injecting the word “marriage” into articles of law you are handing over your rights to the government to allow you or to take away. The fact that marriage has certain legal issues attached to it, visitation rights, etc, etc–and “family” is another one–just shows that the entire system needs an overhaul. Marriage and family are socially and culturally defined, subject to the constant shifting and changing of society and our culture, and pinning it down, defining it through law, is blatant discrimination and control of one group over another–imposing the value of one culture over another.

Jordan, can I assume you use your right hand to have sex with another person’s left hand? And that’s similar to gay sex? Your logic is so absurd.

Can a guy walk into a lady’s restroom to claim it’s a human right?

The inaccurate concept that homosexuality is solely biological is extremely misleading
http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html

Gay couples need therapy and help more than anything else.

So far, the only arguments I’ve heard against marriage equality break down into two categories:

1.) Jesus.

2.) Ewwwwwww! Gross.

There’s really no point in trying to engage homophobes in rational debate, because bigotry goes beyond rationality. So the only appropriate response is mockery.

Productive? Not really. Entertaining? Oh god, yes.

Besides, history teaches us that bigotry always loses eventually. I mean, imagine going back and telling someone in the 60′s that in forty years time, we were going to elect a biracial dude with the middle name “Hussein” president. They would think you were out of your mind.

okay @ ned: i’m fully for gay marriage, but you’re completing glossing over these peoples’ points in a totally closed-minded way, which isn’t smart because the country voted NO to gay marriage and you might as well try to understand why besides from screaming HOMOPHOBE and YR STUPID. i think a lot of people are pointing out that marriage is between a man and a woman because the american family should be PROCREATIVE, not because it’s “gross.” if the gov. is going to validate your relationship, then they should be getting an american baby out of it. that’s how i think a lot of people feel, not that they hate gay people. i know plenty of parents of gay kids who fully support their child’s lifestyle and aren’t “grossed” out by homosexuality, but don’t think that a male-male, female-female relationship needs to be validated by the government.

if the gov. is going to validate your relationship, then they should be getting an american baby out of it.

So what happens when one of the partners in a heterosexual marriage is infertile?

@chris s:
go to hell
oh wait, it’s not real.

“Jordan, can I assume you use your right hand to have sex with another person’s left hand? And that’s similar to gay sex? Your logic is so absurd.”

Dear “S.,” instead of ignorantly attacking my logic, how about you actually engage what I said. I tried to understand your point above, but it just doesn’t make sense. Either you don’t really understand my point–thinking my point actually had to do with peoples hands—or you are choosing to use completely non-sensical statements to defend your point of view.

Let me rephrase it for you: Being left handed is just as “abnormal” as being gay, in that there are approximate numbers of both kinds of people in our world. Both are biological, inherent qualities of a person. However, someone like you would never call a lefty “abnormal,” and not try to justify taking away their rights just because they were “abnormal.” My point–in response to someone saying homosexuality is abnormal and therefore “wrong”–is that homosexuality isn’t “abnormal,” and therefore you cannot use that word to support a ban on gay marriage. You wouldn’t take away someone’s right to marry because they have red hair would you? I’m sure there are more gay people in this world than red-heads, so I guess being gay is a lot more “normal” than having red hair.

In essense, I’m also trying to say that any argument against gay marriage is a completely theological one, and theology has no place in governmental policies. No one here is yet to prove me wrong, including you.

But anyway, there is no point to trying to reason with someone who thinks homosexuality is a choice. That kind of ignorance is the reason we have laws like this. If you want to respond to what I have written, please try to actually engage my point. In the least, you could at least try to say things that make any sort of sense.

Jordan, not trying to be offensive to any person. However I assume you don’t have any child to speak of, I have two. In fact I have reason to believe you didn’t think – the same way you don’t think I do.

Many babies I knew in early age didn’t show a dominated right hand. In fact one of mine slightly favor left hand and I encouraged her to use right hand more. That can be trained. Similarly I just don’t consider countries whose drivers drive on the left hand side ‘abnormal’.

Sexual organs, aren’t interchangeable like hands, as they do have their inherited functions and usages. Fair enough?

Giving the URL I quoted, I don’t believe majority gays are biological for ‘scientific reason’. Look at the article, the doctors said there are many other reasons beside biological.

> any argument against gay marriage is a completely theological one
If you could answer me, why marriage has to be certified by government? what sense it that?

Carly Gilfoil

To a certain degree I agree with you. The government shouldnt be allowed to dictate or mandate how adults live their lives. Which does make this a tough subject along the lines of voting on whether or not to define what is allowed between consenting adults.

But running along that line of thought what happens when all forms of marriage are accepted? If marriage included: blood relatives eg brother and sister, polygamists, and homosexuals. In my opinion not much difference in those three groups being allowed to marry. The only difference is that homosexuals are the least in minority of these groups so they are that forefront and have the loudest voice. If marriage is allowed between homosexuals then so should brother and sister and polygamists.

Marriage has always been defined between man and woman or many women in some cultures. Yet I dont believe this to be right. However it is more logical to allow this wedlock then homosexual.

S.:

First of all, that organization is founded on the belief that homosexuality is somehow correctable, hence its title including the words “Therapy for homosexuals.” It is obviously going to provide “evidence” to support the claim that homosexuality is a choice. I’d be very curious to learn who was funding all of the research cited by that site. Do you choose to be heterosexual, or are you naturally attracted to men? The governor of my home state tried to “choose” to be a heterosexual–he had a wife and kids–but was still gay. Obviously, his inherent sexual preference could not be undone.

You are right: I did not think about children in my response as I do not have any. However, when I do, I will in no way feel threatened by another couple and their sexual orientation. There are SO MANY terrible heterosexual parents out there, I do not understand why a gay couple could not raise a child better than so many of those couples. And don’t try to tell me it is because a child needs a woman and a man in its life. Should we then outlaw divorce? 50% of marriages in this country end up in divorce. What about single parenthood? Certainly it should be illegal for a spouse to die and leave their child with only a mommy or only a daddy.

And you are right: a hand is different from a sexual organ. My only point was that homosexuality is a common thing, just as common as many things not considered “abnormal.” Your child showed an innate preference to being a lefty, and you were able to teach him otherwise, for reasons I will probably never understand (both candidates for President this year were lefty, but the way). My argument was perhaps faulty for this reason: dominant use of a hand can be taught through muscle control. We can learn to use both of our hands. Sexual preference can not be taught however. A person can have sex with a man, or a woman, but no amount of “practice” or “training” will undo their natural preferences for one or the other (or both). That is where sexuality and hand-usage differ.

And your question about marriage being certified by the government: All people have a right to be married. That is what I believe. That is what most of us believe on this site. Non-religious types, people of varying religious backgrounds, all deserve to be married if they so choose. The government enables people to get married without the use of a priest. Does an atheist not deserve to be married if they don’t want to have a religious ceremony? It is also a government issue because marriage carries with it certain rights, visitation rights for example. Why should a gay man or woman not be allowed to visit their dying partner in a hospital? Because of our legal structure, marriage is extremely important when it come to health care, visitation rights, taxes, etc. No citizen of this country should be discriminated against and denied any of the basic rights that come along with marriage. Your question about why marriage should be government certified still does NOT present me any argument against allowing all people to marry that isn’t theological. All you did was ask me a question. I’m still waiting for any sound argument against gay marriage that is not faith based.

Anyway, I’m going to stop this discussion now. It is turning into an argument about whether homosexuality is a choice. That is something that should be reserved for another forum. If you will look somewhere other than an organization devoted to “correcting” homosexuality, I’m sure you will find plenty of evidence to support my point of view. That was not the point of Josh’s article, and I’m not going to flood his responses with that type of argument. It will go on forever.

If you would like to respond to anything I said about all citizens deserving equal rights, however, or present me a reason gays should not be allowed to marry that doesn’t come from the Bible, go ahead. Otherwise, let’s put the argument about sexual orientation to bed. I think it is disrespectful to everyone on here who KNOWS that their sexual orientation is not, and has never been a choice.

I hesitate to throw my hat into this circus ring of degenerative arguments, but here I go.

First, here’s a shameless plug and also my own views in a more eloquent form than what I’m about to spout: http://www.lolsam.com/?p=815.

Second, to anyone who said something along the lines of “my best friend is gay, and I love gay people, but I believe marriage should be between a man and a woman,” you contradict yourself. If you love gay people, you should view us as people and grant us all the rights of the other people in this country.

Third, the belief that homosexuality is a “sin” is an inherently religious view. And like it or not, marriage is no longer (if it ever really was) a religious institution, so I don’t see how anyone could have a problem with granting marriage rights to homosexuals. It’s not the blessing of the priest/minister/reverend/rabbi/whathaveyou that makes a couple married, it is the legal document signed at the courthouse. So when you run your own religious house of worship, you can respectfully (or disrespectfully) decline to officiate marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples, but that has nothing to do with the legal system, so religious beliefs should be kept separate. Remember separation of church and state? Yeah. I think that’s still in effect.

Fourth, I don’t understand how religious people can take the scripture’s passages on homosexuality being an “abomination” so literally, but gloss over everything else that scripture calls an “abomination.” Like eating shrimp, eating pork, bacon, or ham, wearing two different kinds of cloth at the same time, or working on the Sabbath. Plus, “abomination” means “against tradition” not “despicable and sinful.” Thanks.

Lastly, it sickens me to my core that “anti-gay” is an accepted political view. Not only accepted, but pervasive. Could you imagine someone (or something, i.e. Prop being on an election ballot with an “anti-black” or “anti-woman” stance? Me neither.

Now, go ahead and fire your comments back, but there’s really nothing to say. I understand the argument from the other side, I countered it with point number 3, and I don’t think anyone could have anything to say back that would really trump it. I’m willing to hear your attempts, though.

It to me is funny how so many people wish to live in a society without morals. What happened to trying to live by morals and values? I walk around and hear people dropping F bombs in malls with kids all around. The definition by Websters of moral…of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior, sorry that homosexuals want to cast their immoral behavior into a moral light but myself and the majority of others in the state of California are not buying it. The act of homosexuality is immoral.

One can choose not to have sex. Sex is not a necessity. Ask a Catholic priest. It is not discrimination to say a certain act is immoral and will not be put into a light of being moral. The comparison of gay and black discrimination is ridiculous! A black person cannot wake up one morning and look in a mirror and say “I don’t like being black anymore I think I will be Asian today”. A homosexual can choose to not have sex. Sex is not like air one can live without it. And if marriage is so important learn to follow what nature dictates as normal.

It to me is funny how so many people wish to live in a society without morals.

It’s funny to me that you would say that and expect us to take you seriously in any way.

Refusing to acknowledge the love between two consenting adults without providing any rational explanation? Immoral.

“A homosexual can choose to not have sex. Sex is not like air one can live without it. And if marriage is so important learn to follow what nature dictates as normal.”

Whoah. Homosexual men should not have sex?

Chris, Chris, Chris. You still haven’t answered my question. Did you even read it? Let me repeat it again. Let’s say we live in a parallel universe, where homosexuality is the norm and heterosexuality is unnatural. Now, you are heterosexual. Would you choose NOT to have sex? Because, after all, it IS unnatural. And people shouldn’t be doing unnatural things.

Henry

If we lived in that universe it would soon cease to exist.
When is the last time two men or two women conceived?
To answer your question I would not have sex.

Ned
Is it immoral for a brother and sister to wed?
Is it immoral for a man to have 12 wives?
If you say yes to either you can answer your own question about homosexuality and immoral.

“And if marriage is so important learn to follow what nature dictates as normal.”

If you’re going to cite nature as a source, please include proper MLA citation. Thanks.

Lindsey

What are you talking about? Any person with half brain can tell you homosexuality is against nature. Are two males capable of giving birth? How about two females are they capable of having a baby? The human race would cease to exist or for that matter all animals in Nature would end if the male and its female counterpart did not mate.

So, Chris, if you think marriage should be based on procreation, should we not inhibit the rights of elderly people to marry, for surely they cannot conceive. And people without the intention of having children, and people who have had vasectomies or their tubes “tied,” or people who have to go through the expensive trouble of IVF because it has such a low success rate, or anyone else who has a slim to no chance of producing children in their marriage? Should we prohibit them from marrying too?

Echoing Sam a bit: Is procreation the sole purpose of marriage? Is it illegal for infertile heterosexual couples to get married? Is it illegal for fertile heterosexual couples to decide not to procreate? Are you aware that many animals exhibit homosexual behavior?

Sorry about that.

National Geographic Homosexual Animal Behavior Article

Live Science Homosexual Animal Museum Exhibit Article

Also, I can’t get the web address to cooperate with HTML, but if you search “Love That Dare Not Squeak Its Name” on nytimes.com there’s another relevant, thorough article on the topic.

To anticipate your argument, Chris, neither I nor these articles intend to argue that homosexuality is “natural”. Rather, my point is that nature is not a valid source of evidence in policy discussions such as the one we are trying to have here.

If only everyone read the bible this site won’t even exist. Homogaysexuality is WRONG, it’s all about self-control and the bible to guide you.

If only everyone read the bible this site won’t even exist.

Um, I actually have read the Bible. That’s part of the reason why I’m an atheist.

And if you’ve read your Bible, you know that you’re picking and choosing which unreasonable commandments to follow. Who was the last blasphemer that you stoned to death?

Ned, as a Christian, I can assure you have not ‘read’ the Bible, because the important part of reading is to comprehend, not just seeing.

Also to the above self-claimed Christian who supports gay marriage, although I don’t want to judge you but I do have a doubt about the last time you talked to your pastor.

Mr. Lehi said it better than I can – “As a Christian my beliefs would be called “discriminatory” or “persecuting.” I would no longer be free to express my disapproval of the act.”
http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/i-support-proposition-8/

After all, are majority rights protected or ignored? Mind you, two facts said it will be ignored, thus strengthen the supporters on prop 8

San Francisco 1st graders were taken on a field trip to witness a gay marriage. The school, however, never sponsored a traditional marriage.

Mr Parker was arrested
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1815825713

I agree with what Mr. Lehi said, if gay marriage passed, it is the beginning of the end.

Lindsey

By allowing gays to marry it would cast homosexuality into a moral light. The majority of people in California have spoken and they do not want gay marriage made out to seem moral. Many laws are made to regulate morality. Brother and sister are not allowed to marry. A man is not allowed to have more than one wife. Men and women are not allowed to pay for sex. I could continue the list but I think you get the point. I am sure that a law exists that regulates morality that you agree with, correct?

Not to ignore your previous posts. I am fully aware of acts of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. I am also aware that male monkeys, horses and lions that wish to gain control of females kill the offspring of the previous male. Because it occurs in the animal kingdom does not make it right?

Because it occurs in the animal kingdom does not make it right?

Still waiting to hear what makes it wrong, though.

Ned

It is a matter of morality. Because you choose to commit immoral acts does not mean the rest of society must agree with or affirm your actions.

What makes it wrong is it is an immoral act.

“And just because people don’t accept or approve of what you do, it doesn’t make it discrimination, ”

This is the only comment I read, so forgive me if somebody already mentioned it, but that is quite definitely the definition of discrimination

Justin

Can you tell me where a person in the USA is guaranteed any rights in regards to whom they have sex with? I cant seem to find the amendment in the constitution stating…the right to have sex with your brother, sister, same sex, donkeys law.

Discrimination protected by law is that of race or religion.

Wow Josh, your post exploded. I’m just gonna go through some points that bothered me.

“What makes it wrong is it is an immoral act.”

40 years ago, there were some people who thought it was immoral for African-Americans and Caucasians to attend school together. Before the 19th century (I would Wikipedia for exact dates if you want to be nit-picky) it was thought to be wrong/unnecessary if a woman had an opinion.

And I can hear you say, “It’s a slippery slope from there because this will lead to sex with donkeys.” Well, regarding the incest argument you made, I think it is wrong/taboo because of the damage that inbreeding can cause to children produced. You see how I just gave a logical explanation for something without pulling up religion or the ick factor? The slippery slope argument is also stupid, because sometimes, that slippery slope can lead to progress… hey it’s true! Look who we have as president now! So unless if someone can accurately see the future, I just don’t think that’s a valid argument.

I also dislike it when people use god as a reason for why same-sex marriage should be banned because talking to them about this issue is like arguing in a Cartesian Circle. Another thing I dislike: when people act holier-than-thou (zing!) just because they know how to *really* read the bible. I can’t tell you the number of people I have met who have gone to Catholic schools or bible schools when they were younger that grew completely disenchanted by its rhetoric. I’m just saying– not all people who disagree with the bible are doing so blindly. But that’s really not the point, since the bible or religion should not come into the debate of same-sex marriage.

And please, that whole “it’s for the sake of our children” line is just fear-mongering. According to newspapers, it was a parent who suggested the trip to City Hall with the kids to watch their teacher get wed, not the lesbian teacher who cackled and screamed, “Come and get indoctrinated in my faggoty ways, children!” Children don’t turn immoral because their parents are gay; they become bad adults because their parents were bad parents, gay or not gay.

Sometimes, things take time, and this will definitely happen soon. It was 52.5% to 47.5%! The gap has closed since 2000 when opposition was 61%. What gay rights activists have to do is campaign in areas that aren’t LA and the Bay Area. Honestly, people who discriminate aren’t bad people, sometimes they just don’t know any better.

And if you say, “So I disagree with you, that means I don’t know any better???” Not necessarily. But just because I don’t approve of something you say does not mean I will instate a law to shut you up. It just makes me really, really sad when people try to keep others from being happy because of their own personal opinions. It makes me angry when these same people try to sugar-coat their bigotry with self-righteousness and claims of morality.

What makes something discrimination? To me its exactly what prop 8 did…..It had the majority vote on a minorities rights………

It seems so simple to me……

What if a minority group was given the ability to vote on the rights of the majority?

Oh and saying that gay relationships cant procreate is ignorant…..in today’s society we can splice sperm, surrogate mothers, adoption………

ANYHOW>…….HAVE A GREAT NIGHT EVERYONE>>>>>

Dene

Comparing race to homosexuality is ridiculous. One is an act and the other is something you are born as. Is being black an act? NO. Is practicing homosexuality an act? YES.

It is a matter of morality. Because you choose to commit immoral acts does not mean the rest of society must agree with or affirm your actions.

That is the very definition of circular reasoning. It’s wrong because it’s … immoral?

Okay. So what makes it immoral?

chris s, your willful ignorance is best summed up in these words: “One can choose not to have sex. Sex is not a necessity. Ask a Catholic priest.” Yeah, ask a Catholic priest. Because the Catholic church isn’t FULL of examples of why repressing sexuality is so much more horrible for everyone, but especially alter boys. You should also look into how effective Evangelicals have been with their abstinence-only rhetoric. Higher teen-pregnancy and divorce rates than those who take a more moderate stance and understand the basic truth is that PEOPLE WANT TO AND WILL FUCK. There was an article in the New Yorker two weeks ago that talks all about the folly of owning these impossible ideals.

Consenting gay sex hurts no one. Except maybe the bottom sometimes, I guess.

And if you aren’t gay, you have no idea what it is to be gay and you have no place to comment on it. You just don’t know what you’re talking about. In the words of Naughty By Nature: if you ain’t ever been to the ghetto, don’t ever come to the ghetto, ’cause you ain’t understand the ghetto, and stay the fuck out of the ghetto.

Mind your own business.

By you reasoning Ned is anything immoral?

All acts are moral?

I will answer for you…society decides what is moral and immoral. Society says homosexuality is immoral.

To everyone but chris,

Chris is right. There is such a thing as morality. Morality is not just a construction used to control the frightened masses.

Society told me that fucking horses was wrong so (after years of rehab) I finally stopped. Why cant ‘gay’ people do that?

I will answer for you…society decides what is moral and immoral. Society says homosexuality is immoral.

That’s absolutely absurd. For someone who seems very intent on foisting Christianity down the throats of others, you’re getting very close to total moral relativism.

Before the mid-19th century, a lot of America was pretty sure it was moral to own another human. So did that make it right?

Some societies say homosexuality is immoral. For now. Our society also said that interracial marriage was immoral. (No, Chris, being black is not an act, but a black person declaring his/her love for a white person in marriage is an act. That’s the comparison. By your reasoning, the argument against interracial marriage would have been: “Society declares it immoral, so they should obey and not have sex or get married.”) Because of the Civil Rights movement, that changed. Because of the efforts of gay civil rights groups today, our society will change too. We are evolving into a more tolerant, plural, vibrant society, and there is nothing you can say that will stop it.

Ryan Yates,

i imagine most gay people would think a civil union was just fine if it actually allowed for tax breaks and federal benefits, but it doesn’t. do your research. you sir, are an idiot!

as a straight man, i will never know how this defeat feels, but as a bystander, i am disgusted. it really did ruin my wednesday morning.

i can’t believe blacks voted for prop h8 70/30… interesting. an african american probably would not be president without the gay vote… just saying.

Why should homosexuals be give anything for something they are and do by choice? No proof exists that homosexuality is anything but a choice and not something people are born with.

Why should homosexuality an immoral act be cast into a moral light? For if it is…

If sexual orientation is actually a matter of choice like drug use, we can expect that more of our youth will try homosexuality the more that it is tolerated and encouraged. Along these lines, Dr. Christopher Hewitt’s(13) analysis of the frequency of homosexuality in various societies is summarized in the Table: societies that accept homosexuality have more of it and those that disapprove of and punish it have considerably less of it

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet5.html

“Why should homosexuals be give anything for something they are and do by choice?”

Why should you be given anything for getting married, then, since it’s a choice? The civil rights of marriage aren’t conferred on anyone when they start having sex. They’re given when two people decide to make a profound, long-term commitment to each other. That’s the choice we’re talking about here.

I’m appalled by the drug use comparison. Drug abuse has markedly negative social consequences; homosexuality does not.

“Societies that accept homosexuality have more of it and those that disapprove of and punish it have considerably less of it.”

Since we have yet to establish what makes homosexuality immoral or socially harmful (besides the Bible or nature, which I think have been discounted sufficiently by separation of church & state and irrelevance, respectively), I’ll address a couple of other things. First, societies that accept freedom of speech have more of it and those that disapprove of and punish it have considerably less of it. Should we disapprove of and punish everything that would go away if we did so?

Second, you might want to check out the credibility of the researchers you cite. Dr. Paul Cameron and his research on homosexuality have been formally disavowed by the American Psychological Association, the Nebraska Psychological Association, the American Sociological Association, and the Canadian Psychological Association. I appreciate the citation, but just because it’s on the internet doesn’t make it science.

“societies that accept homosexuality have more of it and those that disapprove of and punish it have considerably less of it”

Of course you’re going to have less people who are out if they’re going to get stoned to death for it. And it is a matter of being closeted, not, as you seem to suggest, homosexuality simply not existing in places like, say, Iran.

So, Chris, when society comes to accept and even embrace homosexuality, allowing same-sex marriage and recognizing same-sex couple as a legitimate family foundation (as I am sure it eventually will, as society has overcome its own ignorance in the past), thus branding it “moral” by your reasoning, you’ll be completely okay with it?

Good for you, that really sounds like progress to me.

If not, I hear there’s absolutely no homosexuality in Iran. I’m sure you’ll be very welcome there.

To S. Chevy, chris s, and the rest of the population who remain ignorant to all things other than themselves:
Allow me to clarify; being gay is NOT about “what you do in bed”, it is about love. It astounds me how many people, including some of my own family, are still so closed-minded, still reacting with fear and hate to anything they don’t understand. The very fact that you used the term “the gays” over and over represents the homophobic idea that we are something else, forever separated from your precious conservative society. You talk about the future for your children, yet somehow for you this means encouraging them to discard everything and everyone that is not an exact copy of themselves. What if YOUR child were gay? No, I know; you have raised your children “better than that”. Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but its NOT a “lifestyle choice” its who you are, no matter how conservative or religious your up-bringing is. Furthermore, it is possible to be gay and Christian, contrary to what you may believe. I was brought up in church all my life, went to youth camps, believed everything my pastors said behind the pulpit, even witnessed one of them leave his profession behind when the Presbyterian Church decided to allow homosexual pastors at a time when I did not even fully know what “homosexual” was, and through all that, through every phase of my life, I never felt closer to God than I have since I found my true love-my girlfriend. I know that marriage is something I may never be able to experience. I may never know what it is to be a parent, and I find it so hard to believe that some of us have to fight so hard for that privilege and others (straight people, might I add) choose to give away the children they helped conceive every day because they think parenthood is a burden.
People speak of God and the message of the Bible, but they seem to forget the greatest message ever taught to us; love one another. Love is all that any of us really have. It is what holds us together and makes us strong, but everyday there are more and more people who try to suppress it. You may take away my right to marry. You may disapprove of how I live my life. But you will NEVER take away my love.

Chris, i feel sorry for you that you are so closed minded. What it comes down to is how you feel about homosexuality. I’m wondering if your views on homosexuality is based on religion. If they are, THIS IS NOT A THEOCRACY, religion should have nothing to do with the government. And if you want to discriminate, which no matter what way you spin it, you ARE discriminating, call it what it is. The fact is there is a pattern of discriminating in this country, which is a problem. And if you ask me you are sounding dangerously close to how racists sounded in the 1950′s. There is also a history of OPPRESSION in this country. Are you aware that in 1917 the immigration act of 1917 was issued? This banned all “psychopaths, inferiors, and people with unnatural sexual instincts”. Under this law gay/lesbians were NOT ALLOWED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA until 1990. For 73 years. Putting homosexuality on the same level as “psychopaths and inferiors”. That is flat out wrong. and if you can’t see that, once again, i feel very sorry for your lack of compassion.

Being homosexual is perverse. By definition Perverse: 1. turned away from what is right or good 2. a: obstinate in opposing what is right, reasonable, or accepted b. arising from or indicative of stubbornness or obstinacy.

On every level homosexuals are perverse. Homosexuals are more perverse than child molesters. At least child molesters dont seek to legitimize their actions. That is the intent of homosexuals by seeking to legally wed. In turn this will create more homosexuals.

Lindsey
Please, if you have more accepted information please share. I could not find any research that showed homosexuality to be anything more than a choice. Homosexuality is not something people are born with. Of the few researchers that have come to this conclusion their research or lab experiments have since been proven false or other researchers have been unable to replicate their study.

Nicole
Why am I closed minded? Is it because I do not accept perversity? I would have no problems with not accepting homosexuals into the USA.

Nicole in your mind compassion must accept perversity? I dont believe in an all tolerant society. There is right and wrong. To be honest I feel sorry for myself as well with so many people unable to accept and acknowledge right from wrong. Given enough power eventually those who feel this way will drag the rest of us down into the gutter with them.

Well Chris, what exactly is your definition of right and wrong? So, if i’m interpreting what you’re saying correctly, it is right to not allow people who are different into the United States of America, which when it was founded was supposed to be a sanctuary for people who were different? It is right to discriminate, because what? Homosexuality makes you uncomfortable? If that is the case, i strongly disagree. Discriminating is WRONG. You seriously are going to say it’s right? And i don’t see “homosexuality” anywhere in that definition of perverse. Laws against same-sex marriage are hurting us. Because it’s dividing our country. Hatred is dividing our country. And divided we fail. I repeat, are your views on homosexuality being perverse based on religion?

“Homosexuals are more perverse than child molesters.”

…because sharing a committed relationship with another responsible, consenting adult is worse than taking advantage of the innocence of a child? Chris, if you actually knew someone who has been sexually abused as a child, I think you would feel quite differently. And if you are actually stating that you would support child molestation, which is by far the most depraved, filthy act anyone could ever commit, before supporting homosexual couples, then I’m sorry, but its you who needs psychological help, not the gay community.

Well Nicole you are almost correct. The USA was not founded for people who were different but for religious purposes. Homosexuality is wrong and because you choose to indulge in it you cannot see that. My views on homosexuality are based on nature, religion, upbringing, and knowing right from wrong.

Nicole many things are defined as being wrong that do not hurt any other human. Doing illicit drugs, having sex with animals, being drunk, cursing and swearing, incest, having more than one wife, suicide the list could go on. I am sure some of these things you think are wrong, correct? I am sure that brother and sister committing incest and in love with one another cannot understand why people do not accept them for who they are. I mean they love each other isnt that all that people should see? Not much difference between that and homosexuality in my view. How about the moron that wants to have 15 wives and the 15 wives want to share that moron man for their husband? They dont understand why people cannot accept them? They love each other and are adults that can make decisions for themselves. Not much difference between them and homosexuals. Well actually I would accept polygamy before homosexuality. At least polygamy does not go against nature.

D Speaks
No I do not accept either homosexuality or child molestation. Both are wrong. What I meant by homosexuals being more perverse than child molesters is they fit the definition of perverse more than child molesters. Homosexuals refuse to see what is right and wrong as can easily be seen here on this blog. Child molesters at least know what they are doing is wrong. Again homosexuals fit the DEFINITION of perverse more so than child molesters.

My previous post is quite clear about perverse in regards to homosexuals and child molesters but thanks for trying to put words into my mouth. In case you are still not getting it, I will repeat both are perverse however homosexuals fit the DEFINITION better than child molesters.

Ha ha…you know what I’m reminded of when I hear people talking about how abnormal gays are and how they shouldn’t be allowed to get married, and how marriage is a sacred institution to be shared between a man and a woman, and all that other crap. I’m reminded of the hundreds of pro-slavery arguments I’ve read in doing research for my thesis. The arguments, that at the time slaveholders and other pro-slavery proponents thought were completely legitimate sounding, to a contemporary person sound absolutely ridiculous. Pro-slavery people were so afraid of losing the world they had created, of allowing people that looked different than them to have the same rights as them. That is the same thing that is going on here today. People don’t like gays or want them to be married because they’re afraid of living in a world that is different than what they’re used to. Well I’ve got news for all of you YES ON 8 supporters. Slaves were freed, black people became citizens…and oh yeah, now we have an African American president. Gays will get the right to marry because it is the right thing, it may take alot more of a fight still to come, but the right thing always prevails. And for that person who many posts back said that marriage has its roots in Christianity. News flash, Christianity is by no means the oldest religion in the world, and people have been getting “married” since the beginning of civilizations. So marriage is only a strictly Christian thing to you, because your afraid to let anyone that is not like you or does not beleive the same thing as you, have any other views besides the ones you have. In a hundred years from now, or whenever, people will read history books and laugh at how ridiculous your argument was for banning gay marriage…the same way that I laugh at how ridiculous pro-slavery arguments were 200 years ago. And for all you NO ON 8 people…remember, your always on the right side if your fighting discrimination!!! May all people of this world be blessed and allowed to live the lives that make them happy

And P.S…..Jesus would have voted NO

Chris your list of things that are “wrong” and “do not hurt any other human” is RIDICULOUS. Ever heard of drunk driving chris? or diseases that might have been spread into the human race directly because of sex with animals? or possibly birth defects that come right along with incest? or how about that polygamy hurts women’s rights? by feeding the views that women were once seen as property? that you can have “as many as you want”? Hmmm…..seems to me that effects other humans. And yes, ONE of the many things the United States of America is based on is freedom of religion. So tell me again how it isn’t wrong that YOUR religious views are being imposed on other people who might not necessarily have YOUR same religion. Freedom of religion: good, but as long as it’s MY religion that’s directly involved with the government? That is not fair to all the other religions in this country.

Stacie
I am glad you know Jesus well enough to ask him his views on Prop 8. I however do not so I will go off of what the bible has to say on the subject. I am sure you are aware that the New Testament is Jesus views. Here is a link that uses old and new testaments of the bible in discussion on homosexuality. Pay close attention to the New Testament as this may help enlighten you on how Jesus would have voted.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/homotheo.html

Stacie
To quote
“And for all you NO ON 8 people…remember, your always on the right side if your fighting discrimination!!! May all people of this world be blessed and allowed to live the lives that make them happy”

So you have no problems with polygamy and incestual relationships that wish to “legitimize” by way of marriage? These people are fighting discrimination and I am sure they would be happier if they were accepted.

Nicole

Have to break this up as I cannot get it to post

Wow you disagree with all of them…lol. By disagreeing with all of the examples I gave you are showing your true colors. You discriminate as much as anybody else. You want laws in place for what YOU perceive to be wrong. Well Nicole the majority of Californians feel just as you do but they also put homosexuals into that group.

The following are responses to your last post
Polygamy is between adults yet you are uncomfortable with it so you wish for it not to be allowed? Most homosexuals use the argument that if it is between adults…well so is polygamy. Just cause you don’t like it is a ridiculous argument especially when you are arguing for homosexuality.

Continued from above

I never used the example of drinking and driving.

Incest again is a choice between two adults like homosexuality. As others have argued if it makes them happy and they are in love why should they not be allowed to follow their hearts? If you are so concerned with disease, have you ever heard of aids? Number one carrier of aids is homosexuals. I have also read that the highest rate of stds is in gay males as well. Homosexuals cannot have children. How can you argue that incest is wrong because they should not have children? People practicing incest could adopt just as homosexuals. Both instances will screw with a childs head equally.

Bestiality is not harming any other humans unless you want to use the argument of disease. If that is the case please see above about stds and aids.

To use your argument about religion from an earlier post…
“And yes, ONE of the many things the United States of America is based on is freedom of religion. So tell me again how it isn’t wrong that YOUR religious views are being imposed on other people who might not necessarily have YOUR same religion. Freedom of religion: good, but as long as it’s MY religion that’s directly involved with the government? That is not fair to all the other religions in this country”
Mormons believe in polygamy. Are your views interfering with what they believe in?

Homosexuality is not a choice. Why on earth would people choose to fight against what a majority think is gross and ought to be squashed? It’s kinda of a “against all odds” situation, and I just can’t imagine a person choosing to do that. If it’s a choice, it would be so much easier to be hetereosexual.

and arguing with Chris S. is kinda useless, you all, because his logic follows as such: “Passing Prop 8 is a good decision because homosexuality is bad. Homosexuality is bad because it is perverse, because either the bible says so, or I think so. I refuse to think of homosexuals as people because they are perverse. They are perverse because I believe so, and I will add to my credibility by throwing out a dictionary definition of perverse, while comparing it to incest.” I mean, he thinks he’s right because he thinks he’s right.

Very good Dene

chris, keep it up, thanks for the last link.

Wow! Great job, Chris! I, too, appreciate the new links that you have shared. Kerby is very methodical in his research regarding the Bible’s view on homosexuality. Although the people who disagree with our stand on this subject consider us hateful, they need to know that , ABOVE ALL, God calls us to love them even though we disagree with the lifestyle they live. Loving the person is required of us, but supporting the immoral behavior is not.

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