Well in the instance of my article (linked above), the sexist op-ed to which it was responding was ultimately retracted by its own author–resulting in a “lesson” of sorts. But what if no one is there to react/respond effectively? It’s a tough question.

–Some of those students may be less informed than others, but that doesn’t make their viewpoints less valuable.

No, I do not agree with this assertion. People who are less informed, more likely then not, have less valuable viewpoints. Some viewpoints are inherently more valuable then others. When things like this go unchallenged and are not corrected, it gives people the excuse to feel the same way.

“If student presses are genuinely meant to function as the mouthpiece for students on campus, then running this op-ed was a service.”

Obviously, these sorts of editorial decisions vary per house, but I’d like to think that even campus papers feel as much of an obligation to quality content as they do ‘being a mouthpiece’ for the campus — and certainly more so, I hope, than to traffic. I mean, I know even campus papers aren’t shielded from raw economic reality, but you’d think that college papers at least would be spared from the celebrity-industrialized link economy? That is to say, I certainly hope Iulia’s editors have a better reason from printing this than to get attention.

Date rape victim-blaming, on the other hand, certainly ins’t a subaltered voice — even at Princeton; I’m sure the student body is plenty exposed to it regardless.

@Max Interesting. I get what you’re saying but not sure I agree.

Also: should I value your comment less because you used the incorrect form of “than” twice?

And guess what, fellas? You’re all rapists.

Jess, I think you’re reading this (poorly crafted) piece the wrong way. I don’t think (or at least I hope not) that her case was that women are the reason for rape. I think she’s calling for more equality and less sensationalism when it comes to rape claims.

“If both people were drunk and if the girl has the right to make the accusation of rape, then why shouldn’t the boy enjoy the same privileges? If a culprit is required, then both of them should be guilty or there should be no culprit at all.”

I think this is an important point to make: why are men burdened with both knowing how drunk THEY are and how drunk the woman they have sex with is, while the woman can blow off the sex and accuse the man of rape. This double standard really hurts both genders, by making all men seem like rapists and (in an ironic twist) taking away power for women. It is as if the law is saying that dem lil womenz can’t judge themselves how drunk they are, and its up to a big MAN to do it for them. Of course, that is ridiculous, and in a case where both parties were drunk and consensual sex occured (obviously you could argue that being drunk stops any consent from being given, but if both parties are drunk, then who’s being raped?), why is it that the woman is given the power to cry rape?

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that rape occurs via drugs or force all the time, or perhaps even a guy getting a girl wasted to take advantage of her. I’m not debating that those are horrible men who deserve to be in jail. But what you seem to be arguing here is that a guy must be 100% sober and able to discern whether a girl he just met is drunk enough to not give consent before sex, and even if the guy is WAY more hammered than the girl, he is still at fault because he didn’t realize the girl was beyond what society says is the “drunk line” for consent.

“Since so much is at stake, it seems that the last thing we want to do is to accuse people of things for which they are not entirely to blame. In circumstances like these, accusations should be made with the utmost consideration.”

I may disagree with the crafting of this piece, but Neagu makes a good point here: lives are torn apart by the accusation of rape, and in this day and age, the power lies almost entirely on the woman, who may use alcohol as an excuse to call rape for sex she regrets. It is the responsibility of the courts to discern the differences between these accusations and real accusations of rape. If redefining rape is what is necessary, I think it needs to be done.

As for your other point, I think we trust our editors (we being the journalistic community) to judge what is worthy to publish and what is not, even in op-eds. If a student submits a paper calling all black people on campus the “n” word and generally perpetuating stereotypes, I think it is the duty of the editor to reject that op-ed. However, in this case, I think it is warranted, because Neagu’s point is valuable for a discussion, even if it seems completely wrong.

phew. tldr

Luis:

This is a very simple issue. I’m not going to write a tl:dr response to your diatribe, but I do have a few points to make:

Rape is never the victim’s fault. A woman who goes out, even if she is drinking, even if she is wearing “slutty” clothing, is not “asking for it.” Maybe she wants to have a good time. That doesn’t mean it’s ok for someone to force her to have sex.

Rape is an under-reported crime. There have been many high-profile, media-fueled cases in which a woman claims rape and it turns out she is lying. These cases are not the norm. It takes an incredible amount of courage to file a police report, especially when society views rape victims as liars and sluts.

You wrote: I think this is an important point to make: why are men burdened with both knowing how drunk THEY are and how drunk the woman they have sex with is.

Because that’s what being a responsible adult means, Luis.

You are defending the despicable actions of rapists by perpetuating the myth that women are untrustworthy whores who have no right to their own bodies.

Get a grip.

Don’t twist around what I said, Keyana.

“Because that’s what being a responsible adult means, Luis.”

Why isn’t the woman burdened with the SAME EXACT responsibility? Are women not responsible adults? I’m not defending rapists, I said so in my post. But when both parties have been drinking and having a good time which then leads to sex, it is both parties that were intoxicated, so why is it that only men are usually accused of rape?

I never said anything about provocative clothing, or asking for it. I’m just arguing for gender equality (remember our discussion yesterday?) in which the entire responsibility to check for consent doesn’t rely on the man.

This is without getting into the even more under-reported cases of women raping men, WHICH FUCKING HAPPENS. Sorry for the caps, but its very true, I have had personal (well not me, but close friends) experiences with this. If you want to talk about rape being under-reported, you’ll have my agreement. Just know that its not a one-way street.

My issue with your reply lies here: “Rape is never the victim’s fault”

I agree 100%. However, why is it that the woman is automatically the victim?

I really did not want to throw my hat into this ring of fire, but there is one important point I want to make re: Luis and Keyana’s comments.

In situations that could be construed as rape, but are not, I would equate a man’s responsibility to know how drunk he is and how drunk the woman he is screwing is with a woman’s responsibility not to throw around accusations of rape. In the first situation, women tend to be the victim, and in the latter, men tend to be the victim.

Both situations suck, but in all seriousness I can’t think of many things that compares to the trauma of being raped. It’s the most invasive form of violence that doesn’t (necessarily) lead to death.

Because statistically, women are the victims.

Don’t pull the “men get raped too” card. Yes. It happens. Yes. It’s horrible.

But according to RAINN, 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, and only 1 in 33 men will be. It’s impossible to escape the fact that women are raped more often than men. Public discussion of the topic will inevitably be framed by gender.

So let’s remove gender from the discussion:

You seem to be suggesting that a victim, if drunk, cannot reasonably accuse someone of rape, simply because the victim was drinking. That the victim’s judgment was impaired, so clearly, the fault must lie with the victim and not the perpetrator. This makes no sense.

Checking for consent is not a “burden” that men have been subjected to. It’s a common courtesy that all adults, male or female, should observe.

Also: laws do exist to punish women who wrongly accuse men of rape. Most of them are related to perjury.

@Luis

First, let’s make sure we define sexual assault. The accepted definition (care of Stanford) is:

Sexual Assault is the commission of an unwanted sexual act, whether by an acquaintance or by a stranger, that occurs without indication of consent of both individuals, or that occurs under threat or coercion. Sexual assault can occur either forcibly and/or against a person’s will, or when a person is incapable of giving consent. A person is legally incapable of giving consent if under 18 years of age; if intoxicated by drugs and/or alcohol; if developmentally disabled; or if temporarily or permanently mentally or physically unable to do so.

Under federal and state law, sexual assault includes, but is not limited to, rape, forcible fondling (e.g., unwanted touching or kissing for purposes of sexual gratification), forcible sodomy, forcible oral copulation, sexual assault with an object, sexual battery, and threat of sexual assault.

You wouldn’t argue that an 11-year-old girl is capable of giving consent, would you? Or a severely developmentally challenged person? If there are drunk driving laws hinged on the fact that drinking stunts your decision-making abilities and reaction time, then it’s understandable that drinking can also impair a person’s ability to give consent. The author of this op-ed does not seem to understand this.

And guess what, fellas? You’re all rapists.

This op-ed asserts that women who were drinking on the night they were raped should not be allowed to declare that act rape. It does not say that ANY sexual act that occurs while drunk is rape, so no, it is not saying that all men are rapists. It IS saying that all women who drink and then get into a sexual situation deserve to be raped.

i think this is an important point to make: why are men burdened with both knowing how drunk THEY are and how drunk the woman they have sex with is, while the woman can blow off the sex and accuse the man of rape. This double standard really hurts both genders, by making all men seem like rapists and (in an ironic twist) taking away power for women. It is as if the law is saying that dem lil womenz can’t judge themselves how drunk they are, and its up to a big MAN to do it for them. Of course, that is ridiculous, and in a case where both parties were drunk and consensual sex occured (obviously you could argue that being drunk stops any consent from being given, but if both parties are drunk, then who’s being raped?), why is it that the woman is given the power to cry rape?

That’s not what this article and this issue is about, though. It’s not that women aren’t capable of judging how drunk they are because they’re women, it’s because they’re too drunk to judge ANYTHING, including how drunk they are. If the man is sober, he should NOT be sleeping with a drunk girl because her state makes it impossible for her to make clear decisions (and vice versa for a sober girl and drunk guy, BTW). If the man is drunk, then he too is incapable of gauging the mood of the situation, and should also avoid having sex with a (sober OR drunk) girl. The point is simple and clear: neither party should be engaging in sexual intercourse with someone they don’t know if they’re too drunk to judge if it’s going to be a regretful situation. The reason most of the blame gets heaped on men is because rape by a man occurs at a much higher rate than rape by a woman. When both parties are too incoherent to comprehend their actions, it becomes messier, and both parties should be held accountable. But slut-shaming women into being too scared to report a crime that’s already highly under-reported the way this article does is inexcusable.

What frustrates me the most about your reply is the basic assumption that your opinion sits upon. You’re assuming that there are tons and tons of women out there who are getting drunk, having sex, waking up the next morning and regretting it, then accusing their poor, poor male sexual partner of rape. It deeply offends me that you seem to think this kind of thing is so popular. It makes me fear that you have a pretty negative opinion about women if you believe a large percentage of us are rape-crying constantly. I’m not saying this situation doesn’t happen EVER, but it is certainly far more rare than you make it out to be, and should not be used as a way to shame women who have actually been raped into not speaking up for fear of being categorized as a rape-cryer.

And okay, I get it. Men can be raped. But just because like 1 out of every 890432 rape case is a woman raping a man doesn’t mean you can draw a correlation between the situations. You’re a modern man. You want things to be completely ~~equal~~. But in terms of rape and blame the sides AREN’T equal, because it is almost always the man acting aggressively upon the woman. Men are not the victims here–not because I think women are better than men or deserve better treatment, but because STATISTICALLY, men are so rarely the victims in rape cases.

I could go on and on but this entire thread is already tl;dr.

I never said that men get raped at even a fraction of the rate that women do, but it happens, therefore can’t be ignored. But fine, I’ll remove gender from the discussion.

I am not suggesting at all that the victim is to blame. Please understand that. What I am arguing for is a change in how we come to the conclusion of WHO is the victim, in certain cases. And if both parties are drunk, why is one party more the victim than the other? If you can explain that to me, in a way that isn’t just “because women get raped more”, then I will gladly move on.

And you can’t call something “common courtesy” that leads to lives being wrecked and claims of rape being made. It is a burden in a court of law, wherein a man (or a woman) may have to defend themselves against a claim of rape that may completely false.

And yes, perjury exists. However, you can’t compare the sentence that comes along with perjury to the sentence (and social repercussions) that come with being even ACCUSED of rape (nonetheless convicted, especially if falsely so).

Keyana:

I think you missed the point of Luis’s comment. The argument is that being a responsible adult is a pendulum that swings both ways. Rather than blindly supporting accusations of acquaintance rape, we must look at both sides of the story. How can it be that a woman can be too drunk to be responsible, yet so often the man is held responsible for his actions no how much he drank?

There are clear instances of purposeful rape, however what this piece attempts to do is broach the gray areas, like acquaintance rape. Men are equally capable of being, both mentally and physically, violated. A woman taking a drunk man to her apartment should be just as responsible for raping him as he would in the reverse situation,

So to revise Luis’s question: Why are men burdened with both knowing how drunk THEY are and how drunk the woman they have sex with is, when women aren’t?

You wrote: You are defending the despicable actions of rapists by perpetuating the myth that women are untrustworthy whores who have no right to their own bodies.

I believe you are furthering the myth that men are irresponsible brutes while women are dainty ladies incapable of shouldering responsibility.

Inevitably, both parties bear responsibility for sexual activity. There are plenty of cases of violent, coerced, and forced rape that are dealt with in our justice system in which clearly the victim bears no blame. However what this article was attempting to explore, are the un-prosecuted instances of drunken sex, mis-labeled acquaintance rape, that are swarmed by individuals waving the banner of ‘victim blame’.

@Jess:

First thing you need to remember is that I said that the article raises good points, not that I am in agreement with it. I’ll even quote myself:

“Jess, I think you’re reading this (poorly crafted) piece the wrong way. I don’t think (or at least I hope not) that her case was that women are the reason for rape. I think she’s calling for more equality and less sensationalism when it comes to rape claims.”

Again, I am hoping that the claim she was trying to make wasn’t what you thought I thought it was (if that makes sense).

“It does not say that ANY sexual act that occurs while drunk is rape, so no, it is not saying that all men are rapists. It IS saying that all women who drink and then get into a sexual situation deserve to be raped.”

Isn’t that what your definition of sexual assault indicates though? That all sexual acts while drunk ARE in fact sexual assault, because consent could not be given? My quote was directed more at you than at the article.

“It’s not that women aren’t capable of judging how drunk they are because they’re women, it’s because they’re too drunk to judge ANYTHING, including how drunk they are. If the man is sober, he should NOT be sleeping with a drunk girl because her state makes it impossible for her to make clear decisions (and vice versa for a sober girl and drunk guy, BTW). If the man is drunk, then he too is incapable of gauging the mood of the situation, and should also avoid having sex with a (sober OR drunk) girl. ”

So the man is too drunk to judge ANYTHING as well, including that he should not have sex with anyone. The woman should also avoid having sex with a (sober OR drunk) boy. Why is it that you only addressed one side of the issue? You say in parentheses that it applies the other way, but alas, you don’t back it up in your next sentence. This is why dual drunk situations become harder and in that case, both parties were raped, if we go by your definition.

“The reason most of the blame gets heaped on men is because they are most often the ones who are sober, having sex with a girl who is drunk. ”

You will get no argument from me here. But like I said to Keyana, most does not equal all, and just because its rarer for it to happen to men, doesn’t mean we can ignore it.

“What frustrates me the most about your reply is the basic assumption that your opinion sits upon. You’re assuming that there are tons and tons of women out there who are getting drunk, having sex, waking up the next morning and regretting it, then accusing their poor, poor male sexual partner of rape. ”

As I said in my IM, I am realistic enough to understand that it isn’t an every day thing. BUT it does happen, and again, it can’t be ignored. It also happens more than you might like to think it does, but I have seen it happen too many times to not have to point it out.

“I’m not saying this situation doesn’t happen EVER, but it is certainly far more rare than you make it out to be, and should not be used as a way to shame women who have actually been raped into not speaking up for fear of being categorized as a rape-cryer.”

Clearly we disagree (and this might be based on both experiences and research) on how much it occurs. If that is a way to shame women into not reporting, then know that my intention is not that. My intention is to not have the opposite occur: making it too easy for women to falsely accuse men of rape, and send innocent men to jail. This is where we must have faith in our judicial system, to sort through the real cases of rape and the false.

“And okay, I get it. Men can be raped. But just because like 1 out of every 890432 rape case is a woman raping a man doesn’t mean you can draw a correlation between the situations. ”

Thanks to Keyana’s statistics up there, we can see that its about 1/5 as rare for a man to be raped as it is for a woman. Is 20% really little enough to dismiss?

Luis is merely suggesting that men and women should be responsible adults. He’s not putting the blame on victims at all. I think that both men and women need to be responsible with their alcohol intake and be aware of their surroundings.

If you are blackout drunk at a crowded party, you are being irresponsible and putting yourself in a position where someone can take advantage of you.

In a perfect world, I would be able to drunkenly walk down a dark alley in a mini skirt and not be in danger. That is not the world we live in. As women, we need to be aware of our surroundings and remove ourselves from potentially dangerous situations.

@Luis We are going to have to agree to disagree but I seriously urge you to read up on this subject.

Also, I don’t get your math.
17% of women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
.03% of men will be sexually assaulted.

That seems like a pretty huge gap to me. Not to mention that I bet further research would indicate that the people who assaulted the 17% of women and the .03% were almost all men themselves.

Anyway. Yeah. Agree to disagree. This thread has exhausted me.

@Jess

1/6 = 17%
1/33 = 3%, not .03%

Therefore, it is 1/5 as rare for men to be raped.

And yeah, I’m pretty wiped out from all this TLDR-ness.

@Veronica

In a perfect world, I would be able to drunkenly walk down a dark alley in a mini skirt and not be in danger. That is not the world we live in. As women, we need to be aware of our surroundings and remove ourselves from potentially dangerous situations.

It makes me so sad that you seriously think this!! Ahh!!! Rape is a VIOLENT crime, not a sexual one. It doesn’t matter what you’re wearing. Being pretty or dressing provocatively doesn’t make a rapist want to rape you more.

@Luis

Okay I don’t understand fractions but I believe you! Haha. My point still stands– the important statistic is that of all the people in jail for sexual assault, only 1.4% are women.

@Jess That has to do as much with the general problem that men are even less likely than women to report rape, and to get convictions for their assailants. That’s another problem with rape statistics: the vast amount of cases that go unreported, dealing with both men and women. So that “important statistic” is really not that important.

@Luis Isn’t this exactly WHY we have a judicial system?

@Marley I am not “perpetuating” that men are brutes. In fact, they are not. So we should expect them to act accordingly. And a woman who falsely accuses a man of rape should absolutely be punished for it.

@Keyana Yes, and if there wasn’t an issue of perception in jury’s minds about rape, I wouldn’t be complaining. However, since humans aren’t robots, perpetuating ideas that women are so much more likely to be raped than men, and that men are at fault for mutually-intoxicated sex does influence that very same judicial system. I hate to say it, but this isn’t a perfect world.

@Jessica

Lets not make this harder than it has to be. You know exactly what I meant. Some people like to live their lives in “la la land”.

If its the mini skirt that’s bothering you then, fine:
I find it “so sad” that you believe you can drunkenly walk down a dark alley and not be in any sort of danger.

My point was that RESPONSIBLE people should avoid potentially dangerous situations and I gave an example. If you want to spin my words and feel “so sad” then do so.

@Jessica

Isn’t the amount of unreported rapes and sexual assaults vastly higher for men a contributing factor to the small number of women in jail for it? The idea that men can’t be raped, which is still prevelant in our society today?

This has nothing to do with the discussion that has developed in the intervening hour since I posted my last comment, but I just want to clarify that I meant “subaltern” up there. Kind of wrong word choice, either way, but want to make sure I fix my typo.

@Luis: Read this. I was gonna type a whole long statistical thing but it’s not worth it. I think we both have very different lenses from which we’re viewing this whole thing.

@Veronica: Oh, jeez. I was not “spinning your words.” You said that you were at a greater risk of getting raped by walking drunkenly down a dark alley in a mini skirt, and I told you why the skirt is not a factor. Sorry you got so offended. I mean, sure, being in a dark alley is more dangerous than being at your house, but in terms of rape, approximately 73% of rape victims know their assailants, so you’re not really giving yourself that much of a bigger chance of getting raped by being in a dark alley. Mugged, stabbed… okay, sure. But that alley and that skirt don’t really impact the chances of you being raped all that much.

Otherwise I AGREE WITH YOU and ‘feel sad’ that you got so huffy. We should not be on opposing sides of this debate! Grrl power! Responsible people SHOULD avoid potentially dangerous situations!

@Marley

“Isn’t the amount of unreported rapes and sexual assaults vastly higher for men a contributing factor to the small number of women in jail for it? ”

I don’t understand the reasoning that because a man is raped means that it was a woman who did it. I’m not arguing that the statistics of men who are raped are under-reported, but I do think it’s misinformed to assume that all, or even the majority, of those under-reported cases were men-raped-by-women cases.

Okay I’m not responding to anymore @ replies because this article/situation/discussion has just made me hate humanity and I have to preserve my own sanity.

Not to mention that this was the convo I actually wanted to avoid, which is why I pegged the post to censorship and student publications.

I’m not terribly keen on getting in an argument but here are my thoughts in a nutshell: Luis is saddened that there is an apparent double standard, but misses the reason such a standard exists. The author of the op-ed has far out ideas that set us back decades in human rights.
Everyone is terribly impassioned.
Rape is bad.
That is all.

Trying my best to care about the horrible injustice of straight dudes being falsely accused of date rape that is absolutely pandemic to our society, but somehow I feel like the world maybe has more relevant problems.

/joke

@Jess

ANYWAY — Can we please still have the editorial discussion? I feel like Iulia’s editors are betraying her if they ran this intending for it to get lots of negative feedback. I mean, as a matter of opinion, I think it’s a shitty editorial move either way, but I mean the WaPo runs Sarah Palin columns, so I can’t really fault a campus paper for doing something similar. But Sarah Palin is a public figure who sucks and deserves ridicule — this Princeton freshman is not.

I mean, I guess she can stick up for herself and it’s kind of condescending to say that she needs her editors’ protection, but I dunno? Thoughts?

Also: Did Mr. Ackerman ever get back to you? I don’t mean to be too hard on the editorial staff over there, to be clear! I’m mostly just curious/intrigued!

Are you seriously putting beres’ op-ed which jokingly (and admittedly stupidly) uses a silly stereotype of women along with men in the same category as an op-ed blaming rape victims for what happens to them? really?

After reading the op-ed that everyone is commenting on, I have to say that it sounds A LOT like this girl is implying that a drunk person, because they chose to get drunk, can’t press charges for ANY crime committed against them while they were inebriated because they “had it coming.” This would be a fairly moronic statement if it were made regarding, say, getting mugged because you drunkenly walked alone down a dark alleyway that a sober person would recognize as being dangerous. It goes from moronic to horrifying when you follow that logic to the conclusion that rape is any less of a violation simply because the victim was that drunk. However, I do see the point that in a situation in which both parties are too drunk to make rational decisions or perhaps even remember their actions and have what at the time they might consider to be consensual sex, it’s difficult to establish legal culpability afterwards in terms of who is the perpetrator and who is the victim.

@John JACKERMAN (my new nickname for him) hasn’t gotten back to me yet, though I did only email him early this afternoon.

If they ran it knowing full well she’d get chewed out, then it depends where their loyalties lie- it appears that this was her first article on the site, so maybe they felt that traffic was more important than keeping her on as a staff member. Maybe they ran it because they felt it was an important issue to address. Who knows. I, personally, would never run something that I knew would get attacked even if I knew it would get a ton of traffic. I don’t know if that’s necessarily a good move editorially, but I’m a softy, and really earnest, so I’d have a lot of trouble knowingly feeding my writers to the sharks.

@Jess: You don’t know if that is a good move editorially in what sense? Do you think disingenuously running with a story for hate clicks is good editorial? And are we talking about in terms of quality of the content? (Obviously, there are other editorial motives, but let’s for a second pretend we’re in a vacuum or whatever.) I mean, I suppose if it were really compelling and the copy were really good, then it might be worth it — but in that case you would kind of believe in it, too, and you’d kinda in that way be on board, wouldn’t you? I dunno. I feel like in general that is kind of a cynical move (ie — running something you know will get attacked at least partly for the attention) that doesn’t manifest from the kind of generosity that makes a good editor or anything I worth reading. I mean, in this case it reads kinda stiff and didactic — like the writer didn’t even consider than anyone might actually read it — which is reason in and of itself not to publish, but I get that we’re all starved for content on this here internet…

So many questions!

This has been a fascinating thread. I think what the author of the op-ed was trying to get at (and probably the reason the Princeton paper published it) was that people get drunk, have sex, and potentially regret their decision. But, legally, certainly, and morally, I would say, if both parties were drunk, it’s very much a gray area.

Unfortunately, she goes down the path of claiming that those who drink are asking for it. Yikes. Not good. I’m with Jess/Keyana/et. al. here.

BUT. People get drunk and have consensual sex. All the time. But, legally, neither party can actually consent when they’re intoxicated. How do you assign blame if one party accused the other of rape because they claim they were too drunk to consent? Jess, is the answer really not to have sex while intoxicated?

Jess, you wrote, “neither party should be engaging in sexual intercourse with someone they don’t know if they’re too drunk to judge if it’s going to be a regretful situation.” But you can’t make that decision! You’re too drunk!

This is actually a difficult topic to wrestle with. (Please stop attacking strawman arguments, everyone!) There’s a prosecutor in the US somewhere who pursues life in prison in DWI vehicular homicide cases on the basis that you make a conscious decision to begin drinking, which you know impairs judgment, which you know could lead you to drive drunk. By choosing to drink, the prosecutor claims, your actions are beyond negligence, they are premeditated. Is that fair?

@John Hm, yeah, it is really poorly written. I guess it’s a good move editorially if you value traffic over your staff/content/style, because this piece is so bad that it’s hard to see it as anything but link bate…. I mean, the Princetonian editors are just plain awful editors if they think this piece was well-written or well-thought out. But otherwise, if as an editor your raison d’etre is more about training good writers and producing valuable content, then it’d be a poor editorial decision to run a piece like this, because it just isn’t well-written. At all. Like, aside from the fact that I disagree with the opinions expressed in it.

I dunno, if I were them I would’ve either 1) Edited it severely so that it’s actually compelling or 2) Spike it. Controversy for controversy’s sake is good for traffic, but that’s about it.

Then again if they didn’t run it I wouldn’t have spent all afternoon arguing on the internet about rape! So really: thanks a lot, JACKERMAN.

@Alex I linked to Annie’s breakdown of it as a sexist piece (see how it’s linked on the word “sexist” and not on “WSN EDITORIALS THAT ARE PRO RAPE.”) Of course I am not saying his piece is as awful as this one, but Annie’s argument was that it was sexist, which is why I linked to that post.

Relatedly, Damon has forgiven me for slighting him so. At least via Gchat.

I have learned a lot from this piece and I feel like everyone has made important contributions to the discussion at hand. That being said, the only thing that I don’t understand was Jes comment to Veronica.

“We should not be on opposing sides of this debate! Grrl power! ”

Why should you two not be on opposing sides of the debate? Why should Veronica have the same stance as you and not her own which disagrees with yours? Maybe it’s a stretch, but your comment makes it seem like Veronica should agree with you based solely on the fact that you’re both women.

Why can this thread not die? I hate the internet.

@Phillip
I simply meant (in a mostly joking way, hence the misspelling/gratuitous exclamation points) that women (humans, even!) should bond together to fight injustices, whether they be rape, unequal pay, whatever. I guess (and whether this is fair or not is debatable) that I feel like women can identify with my opinions on these issues more easily simply because we’re coming at it from the same (female) side/experience in a gendered world. It was seriously a throwaway side comment so I don’t even really feel like defending it further.

I just wanted to really quickly say that I’m so glad you posted this, Jess, even though the piece enraged me. (I wish I could say I can’t believe a woman wrote it. But unfortunately, I can (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/More-Than-Half-Of-Women-Think-Other-Women-Are-To-Blame-For-Rape-According-To-Wake-Up-To-Rape-Survey/Article/201002315549284?f=rss).) Still, I thought it brought up an interesting discussion. I won’t jump into the “who’s at fault” game because there shouldn’t be a debate about that at all, for goodness’ sake.

But I do want to say that when I was in a leadership role at WSN, I would have STRONGLY disagreed with anyone who wanted to publish this. Not only is it offensive and sexist, it is horrendously written and researched. It makes me want to write a letter to the editor and the writer just explaining how incredibly disappointed that a fellow college newspaper would publish something like this. I’m not saying WSN is constantly publishing perfect op pieces. But I hope they’ll never publish anything this categorically offensive.

As a final comment. My comment from the beginning is also invalidated because not only did I use poor grammar….. but I did not spell my own last name correctly.

[...] entirely related (though still relevant) post by Amanda Hess at The Sexist. My friend Jessica wrote a great post for NYULocal, wherein she not only expressed disgust for the position of victim-blaming but also [...]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/nyregion/24perjury.html?ref=todayspaper

Look, I can paste links too!

Rape stats for this week in NYC. 24 reported rapes (dozens more unreported).
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cscity.pdf

Sex crimes topic at the NYT–notice how, aside from the link above, no other articles are about false rape charges:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/sex_crimes/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=rape&st=cse

No, that dark alley has nothing to do with your chances of getting raped:
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/02/23/rape-analogy-the-walking-in-a-bad-neighborhood-theory/

Wasn’t the short skirt either:
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/02/16/on-short-skirts/

Tell this victim she deserved it, why don’t you:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1251364/JENNI-MURRAY-I-drunk-wearing-short-skirt-agreed-to-house-Does-REALLY-mean-I-deserved-raped.html

These stats say it all:
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

Okay I’m officially done.

[...] a comment » Yesterday I got into a public argument (see the comments) about feminism and rape culture. It left me frustrated and depressed. I spent my [...]

And guess what, fellas? You’re all rapists.

Guess what, fellas? Studies have shown that there is no difference between a convicted rapist and an average college-aged male when it comes to attitudes about forcing sex on a woman. If psychologists can’t tell the difference, then I’ll err on the side of caution, thank you very much. After all, if I don’t, I’m “asking for it,” right? Unless and until you prove otherwise, you’re suspect. Don’t want to be? Then next time your buddies make a rape joke, say something to tell them what idiots they are. Next time you read a story about rape, don’t be a rape apologist. Don’t want to be treated like a perpetrator? Be part of the solution.

Men who rape know what they are doing. So do women who rape, for that matter.

You can tell, you really can, if someone wants to have sex with you. The person is enthusiastic and gets into it. If someone is just lying there, or pushing you away, or unconscious, or saying no, then you are commiting rape (the sole exception being mutally agreed upon role play with safe words).

Don’t wanna be a rapist? Don’t have sex with someone who can’t say yes or exhibits one of the behaviors I just enumerated.

Why is it so difficult for some men to understand the whole consent issue? I have to believe it’s because they don’t want to.

[...] Princetonian Op-Ed Plays the Rape Blame Game (NYU Local) [...]